Post Tinebrae Lux

Striving to spread the true light of Christ.

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Location: Howe, Texas, United States

Married with two adult children (Patrick & Brittney).

Friday, July 14, 2006

On Alcohol (the drinking kind)

During my short tenure here in blogosphere I have become painfully aware of an issue that appears to have taken on "life or death" importance since the most recent meeting of the SBC. It's the issue of whether or not the Bible speaks against the Christian's liberty to consume alcoholic beverages. I have been engaged in at least four different blogs where discussion - wait, that's too mild - where heated and often Christ dishonoring assaults have been made from those on both sides of the issue. I must say, however, that it is my experience that those who would promote the Biblical position of moderation (I say Biblical not in the sense of "most accurate", but in the sense of "basing one's position on Scripture) have been, for the most part, the ones who suggest that it is a conviction issue. In other words, it is my experience that (most of) the moderationists (can I call them that?) take the position that if you are convicted (and convinced) that the consumption of alcohol is blessed by God (not the abuse of alcohol), then the only requirement is that you do all to the Glory of God. In like manner, most of the comments I've seen by moderationists have inferred the same attitude toward those who would abstain - i.e. that if that is their conviction, then their only obligation is to be fully convinced and abstain to the Glory of God. Maybe it's a bias of mine (as I would put myself in the moderationist camp), but I truly have seen less judgement from the moderationists than the abstentionists (is that a word?). To be fair, I have witnessed the cry of "legalist" from the moderationists, but I think maybe that cry is in response not to the abstentionists view of alcohol as much as it is their attitude toward the moderationists. It has been my experience that, for whatever reason - and I'm sure there are many - the abstentionists fear that a moderationist view of alcohol will permeate the SBC - if not Christianity itself. In response to that, not only have they developed extensive and elaborate arguments for multiple uses of the word "wine", why Jesus didn't drink real wine, etc., but they have (and I realize this is a generalization - not all abstentionists would do this - possibly not even the majority) made abstention of alcohol into a "Scriptural absolute", thus justifying their condemnation of anyone who would dare consume a glass of "real" wine (strong drink according to most of the posts I've seen). Don't misunderstand me - the Godly exchange of ideas, Scripture interpretations, etc. is both edifying and strengthening. Judgement from those who abstain, however, or disdain from those who do not abstain, is immoral according to Rom. 14. Is there not a point where we who drink in moderation can lift our wine glasses with the glasses of those who abstain (whatever may be in those glasses) in honor of God's love, blessings, sovereignty, and son Jesus Christ? Please do not post dissertations on why you believe the Bible prohibits alcohol - that issue has already been addressed ad-nauseum on several other blogs. This post is not about defending the consumption of alcohol - it is about the judgemental approach some abstentionists take toward moderationists and - to be fair - the despising approach some moderationists take toward abstentionists.

Post Tinebrae Lux

18 Comments:

Blogger brad reynolds said...

PTL
Excellent Post and good cautionary words. However, as an abstentionist I believe the Bible is condemnatory of Strong drink and I further believe today's alcohol is strong drink. I honestly see nothing God honoring of partaking mind-altering drugs.

I would never dare to speak for others but my stance is certainly not judgmental, that is God's job. Nevertheless, if God has judged something, then I believe it is important to say so. I would not speak any differently on alcohol than I would any mind-altering drug, or for that matter slavery.

I certainly have appreciated your consistency in maintaining that if it is legal it is not wrong to partake of any mind-altering drug provided one does not get drunk (although I think the state of drunkenness is not a drunk or not state but a continuum).

Perhaps your wisdom in cautioning ad-hominal statements and maintaining a Christ-like spirit in this discourse will be followed by all and may we quickly repent when we fail.
BR

7/14/2006 7:19 PM  
Blogger brad reynolds said...

PTL
One other thought. I can and do have great fellowship with some of those who disagree with me on this issue. I have some close personal friends who wrongly :) hold the moderationists view.

I believe they honestly believe the Bible allows such a position. I don't believe however, they see the danger I think exists. Further, they know I believe the Bible teaches abstinence.
BR

7/14/2006 8:42 PM  
Blogger Wayne Smith said...

BRAD,
You should have read the posts at

http://concernedsbcer.blogspot.com/

before making a statement against GOD'S WORD. I'm having a problem seeing your heart on this matter. I can see where you stand, but in my work for the LORD I have been BLESSED with working with the people that JESUS spoke about in THE SERMON ON THE MOUNT. Those in lofty positions need to remember what JEJUS Taught and what GOD'S WORD SAYS.

My GOD BLESS YOU
A Brother in CHRIST

7/14/2006 9:12 PM  
Blogger brad reynolds said...

In his name,
Actually I had read his blog. Have you read NT Scholar Stein's work? If so then you know that oinos had a range of meanings - juice, new wine, old wine, and primarily in that day wine diluted with water.

Your accusation of my making a statement against God's Word is fallacious, and honestly uncalled for. May God forbid that I should ever do that. And my comments clearly reveal I did no such evil. I'm not sure anything causes a quicker reaction in a soldier than to be accused of fighting against, that which he is fighting for...but I have become accustomed to such ad-hominal comments, nevertheless may the Lord judge.

I trust that was not your heart nor intent, but a lapse.

And all Christians should KNOW and remember what God's Word says
BR

7/14/2006 10:36 PM  
Blogger Wayne Smith said...

BRAD,

Again, I ask you where in GOD'S WORD, does it say drinking wine is a SIN. People I witness to think that Christians look down there nose at them. JESUS taught me to open my arms to them. By the way I rarely drink anything stonger than COKE, except for communion, The LORD SUPPER.

A Brother in CHRIST

7/14/2006 10:50 PM  
Blogger brad reynolds said...

One other thought:
I would not accuse a moderationist of making a statement against God's Word unless they really made a statement against God's Word because:
1. The accusation would not be true. Just because the Moderationist wrongly interpret Scripture does not mean they have stated something against it.
2. I make the assumption that many of them are sincerely trying to seek truth.
3. Ad-hominems are the lowest form of debate.

This courtesy should be extended to those of us who hold the view of abstinence if discussion is to take place.
BR

7/14/2006 11:00 PM  
Blogger brad reynolds said...

in his name,
The same place it says smoking marijuana is a sin.

Sadly, you are right in stating that many Christians come across as self-righteous to the lost world. I would never even try to argue with a lost individual that drinking or cursing or even sexual infidelity is sin.

I know Christians who don't even tell their neighbors of the love of Christ death and resurrection and yet criticise the sinners in their sin...what a horrible witness.

But the bad witness of some Christians to the world does not remove my responsibility to speak to Christains the principles I believe God's Word teaches. The fact that men like John MacArthur and Robert Stein and Danny Akin and Paige Patterson and Richard Land and Jerry Vines and Phil Roberts and countless others (including 61 Southern Baptist conventions) feel the Bible teaches abstinence surely gives some amount of creedence to my position, however small it may be.
BR

7/14/2006 11:12 PM  
Blogger posttinebraelux said...

Brad,
Is not simply putting forth the assertion that "God has judged something (wrong)" taking a judgemental stance against the moderationists? The logical conclusion of your argument that God has judged the consumption of alcohol (as wrong) is that those who consume alcohol are judged by God. That position simply cannot be defended via sola-scriptura. Is not the statement, "My interpretation of God's Word is that God has warned against the consumption of alcohol -therefore I choose not to consume it. The directive is, however, not a Scriptural absolute and, as such, I will grant my moderationist brothers liberty in their handling of Scripture"?

Humbly,

PTL

7/15/2006 4:33 AM  
Blogger brad reynolds said...

PTL
To the degree God has judged slavery and partaking of mind-altering drugs he has judged alcohol consumption, although I think we can agree that his judgment on these issues is not the same as his judgment on homosexuality.
BR

7/15/2006 6:02 AM  
Blogger brad reynolds said...

Further, I think many great theologians and NT scholars would argue abstinence can be defended Sola-Scruptura, as would I.
BR

7/15/2006 6:05 AM  
Blogger posttinebraelux said...

Brad,

My point exactly. Your forced useage (anc correct too) of the words "I think" buttresses the fact that the position held by the abstentionists is a "conviction" and not a scriptural absolute (as opposed to: "Be not filled with wine, which is dissipation, but rather be filled with the Holy Spirit." - that is a Scriptural absolute).
PS- you misunderstood me on the sola-scriptura comment - I was saying that the position, "those who consume alcohol will be judged by God" cannot be defended via sola-scriptura.

Brothers in Christ,

PTL

7/15/2006 7:03 AM  
Blogger brad reynolds said...

PTL
If you prefer, instead of saying I "think" I will gladly state "Scripture as a whole teaches alcoholic consumption for purposes of pleasure is wrong."

My point was never that God will judge those who consume alcohol although He certainly will, as well as those who do not consume it. But rather, if God has judged an action as wrong, and we declare so then we are not the judge.

Finally, you have helped me to guard against ad-hominems on my blog...let me return the favor. Perhaps you may desire to caution some who comment here from accusing others of making a statement against God's Word...an unfounded accusation. :)
BR

7/15/2006 7:20 AM  
Blogger posttinebraelux said...

Brad,

I certainly agree that any accusations whould be specified as opposed to generalized. That is exactly the point of this blog - that broad brush statements from either position can hinder more than help. You must concede, however, that it is - in the final analysis - your opinion that Scripture "as a whole" teaches that alcohol consumption for pleasure is wrong. There is no scripture that says, "Scripture, as a whole, teaches that alcohol consumption for pleasure is wrong." Implicit in your assertion is the condemnation of those who consume alcoholic beverages - whether you intend it or not. A much less critical stance would be that, "it is a personal conviction for me that, based on my interpretation of scripture, alcohol consumption for pleasure is wrong. While I disagree with the position of moderationists, their interpretation too, is based on scripture and, as such, I should not judge their actions." How does that sound?

PTL

7/15/2006 11:51 AM  
Blogger brad reynolds said...

PTL
Do you believe specific accusations should be founded?

I think that was what you were asking me to guard against on my blog:)

The Bible is not an encyclopedia addressing any sin man can dream of doing (I fear such a document would be way to voluminous, with medicinal and essential exceptions. Further, many would be side-tracked from the theme of Scripture (God's Grace/ not Man' Sin)). However, there are principles to guide morality. I will list next week, on my blog, some hermeneutical principles...perhaps this will help uncloud the fermented waters.

You are correct in inferring however, that since abstinence is the Biblical position on alcohol used for pleasure, there are implications. However, lest I sound judgmental, I assure you, of sinners I am chief. And sadly my sins are usually open cognitive rebellion unlike many moderationist, who are truly seeking truth in Scripture.

If I felt it was a conviction we would not be discussing it.
BR

7/15/2006 12:33 PM  
Blogger DataLore said...

The Bible teaches that consumption of alcohol in moderation is allowed if it does not cause a weaker brother to stumble.There does come a point were the weaker brother needs to move forward in his grasp of the Word.
For those who are against it please explain to me Deut.14:26 in a way that would forbid the drinking of alcoholic drink or tell me where you have it posted.
Please let us speak to one another in love .Do not let our good be evil spoken of.
If one is to misinterpret the Word than one is speaking against it.

7/15/2006 1:40 PM  
Blogger brad reynolds said...

datalore,
I choose not to casticate those who honestly misinterpret God's Word and hold the moderationists position, as attacking God's Word - surely the same generosity chould exude from my antagonists. Such harsh language is unbecoming of the wisdom you issue, in your encouragement to speak to one another in love.

Concerning Deut. 14:26 - it has been dealt with extensively on my blog. Especially in the comment section of legalism and alcohol.
BR

7/15/2006 1:59 PM  
Blogger Wayne Smith said...

posttinebraelux,

This Blog has a link to a good story.

http://www.thecitygates.blogspot.com/

ALSO
I have a question and a recommendation for a good read on my Blog

http://saved-by-jesus-christ.blogspot.com/

Your Brother in CHRIST.

7/15/2006 2:47 PM  
Blogger posttinebraelux said...

Brad,

I think you misunderstood my comment due to my errant fingers. :) I meant, "accusations SHOULD be specified and defended via scripture - in an edifying manner. Generalizations should not be made - from either camp." Oh, and one more thing - maybe I haven't mentioned this yet - abstinence is, in your opinion, the Biblical position on alcohol used for pleasure. It is the opinion of many Greek and Hebrew scholars much more knowledgeable than I that moderation is the Biblical position on alcohol used for pleasure. Repeating your position over and over does not make it more absolute dear friend. :)

Grace and peace,

PTL

7/15/2006 5:36 PM  

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